shmups.system11.org

A little while back, Shmup Junkie put together an epic marathon of a 3 hour video where he reviewed & tier listed every shooter to appear on the PC Engine. He even included homebrew titles and hyper-obscure things like Cycho Rider, which was a caravan shooter only unlockable in the demo disc of the jrpg Seiya Monogatari, Hudson's (amazingly beautiful) final game for the system in December 1995. The categorization is his own, though - for instance, Monster Lair & Veigues Tactical Gladiator qualify, but Kiki Kaikai doesn't. Things like Space Harrier & After Burner II count, which I know some disagree with (not me, but some).

I'm looking to build up my PCE collection so I was rewatching it, and I recorded the rankings since he never shows them all at once. I guess 107 games or whatever is kind of a tight fit for the tiermaker chart.

S+:

Spoiler

Gradius II ("If you consider yourself a Gradius fan and you haven't played this, I've got news for you, you ain't no Gradius fan," he says)
NEXZR
R-Type (He makes the point that this game is basically beyond critique, given how many games built off it afterward)
Salamander
Soldier Blade

S:

Spoiler

Air Zonk
Blazing Lazers
Gate of Thunder
Gradius
Lords of Thunder
Magical Chase
Star Parodier
Tatsujin (He says this version is his preferred way to play the game owing to its higher difficulty than the Mega Drive)

A+:

Spoiler

Cotton
Super Star Soldier

A:

Spoiler

1941(SuperGrafx, says this is the best of the 194x games)
Aero Blasters
Deta na!! TwinBee
Download
Forgotten Worlds (He declares this the best port of the game)
Hyper Dyne Side Arms
Hyper Dyne Side Arms Special
Galaga '88
Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire (He's in the "Yeah the gameplay's nothing special, but come on" faction)
Hanatāka Da Ka?
Image Fight
Kyūkyoku Tiger
Mr. Heli no Daibōken
Parodius Da!
Seirei Senshi Spriggan
Super Raiden

B+:

Spoiler

Aldynes (SuperGrafx)
Dragon Saber
Final Blaster
Final Soldier
Kiaidan 00
W-Ring

B:

Spoiler

1943 Kai
After Burner II (Declares it better than the Mega Drive version)
Atomic Robo Kid
Cloud Master
Coryoon (Says it's beautiful but normal is way too easy, and the hard mode sucks)
Darius Plus
Download 2
Hani in the Sky
Hellfire S (Says even on Super CD it doesn't quite match the Mega Drive version, in music, visuals or difficulty)
Image Fight 2
L-Dis
Metamor Jupiter
Monster Lair
Override
Psycho Chaser
Raiden
Rayxanber II (Says it's top tier but too freaking hard even for him)
Sinistron
Super Darius
Super Darius II
Sylphia
Xevious: Fardraut Saga (Designed by Compile, he basically calls this Xevious x Zanac)
Zero Wing

B- :

Spoiler

Seirei Senshin Spriggan mark 2
Super Air Zonk
Terra Cresta II
Veigues Tactical Gladiator

C+:

Spoiler

Burning Angels
Cyber Core
Dragon Spirit (Loves it but ranked it here due to missing levels and busted difficulty at the end)
Dead Moon
Space Harrier (Says he prefers it to MD Space Harrier II)
Toy Shop Boys
Twin Hawk (Says it's a weak port)

C:

Spoiler

Alzadick
Armed Formation F
Barunba
Bōken Danshaku Don: The Lost Sunheart
Fantasy Zone (Says it's an audio-visually underwhelming port of a great game)
God Panic
Heavy Unit
Macross 2036
Ordyne (There must be some mistake)
P-47
Psychic Storm
Psychosis (Says for all the game's positives, its structure is basically hateful to the player)
Rabio Lepus Special
Rayxanber III (Says it's more accessible than II, but feels unfinished)
Space Invaders: The Original Game (Did you know this has a Puyo Puyo-type vs. mode? With lots of anime girls?)
Steam Heart's
Syd Mead's Terraforming
Thunder Blade

C- :

Spoiler

Avenger
Space Invaders (Why are there two releases of this?)
Twin Hawk Custom (Worse than HuCard version, devs didn't have a handle on CD format - missing visual elements, segmented levels, load times, etc.)
Toilet Kids

D:

Spoiler

Hawk F-123 ("It literally looks like a Master System game")
Legion (Voice actor talks inanities whole game. Amazingly, I think it's the actor who did the same in Raiden V decades later. Even babbles about coffee)
Power Gate
Saint Dragon (Says it's a terrible port of a good game, like they put all their time & money into the first stage then ran out)

F:

Spoiler

Deep Blue
Rock On

No Ranking:

Spoiler

Cycho Rider (Great, caravan mini game buried in Seiya Monogatari demo disc)
Darius α (Just a boss rush)
Force Gear (Great, caravan mini game buried in Tokimeki Memorial)
Indie Homebrew Games (They kinda look trash but he obviously didn't want to slam hobbyists keeping the scene alive)
NEXZR Summer Carnival '93 (Same game but with a cool caravan mode added and the cut scenes taken out)
R-Type Complete (Basically says between this & HuCard, choose whichever music you prefer. Likes HuCard better)

Forgive me if I missed a title, or a plus or minus somewhere; as you can see, the PC Engine's shooter library is massive. For comparison, the Mega drive shmup library is just over 50 games or so, and the Saturn's is just over 60 titles. The Super Famicom is ~25, with like 10 of them good.

We really got robbed by NEC's hyper-conservative management here in the West. It's mind-boggling to see the work Konami pulled off on that hardware, and then realize we got literally none of it. Blazing Lazers was the system's launch flagship, and yet it was the only Compile game we got, another dev who had the hardware absolutely dialled. And somewhere, there's a better alternate universe where they just said "Ah, fuck it" and we got an uncensored release of Download.

Spoiler

Anyway, it's the future now, so I can just go buy Spriggan & Nexzr myself.

But WTF, PCE Tatsujin is seriously $1000!? I'll stick with the Mega Drive version, thanks.

Surugaya has Tatsujin for 48,000 yen.

I think the only PC Engine shooters I have are 1941 Counter Attack, Aldynes, Battle Ace, and Dragon Spirit. I've never been able to get super into PC Engine shooters for some reason.

Couldn't find Final Soldier in your post.

I'd probably put L-Dis a little higher, I really enjoyed that one.

just wanted to say that Shmup Junkie's videos introduced me to this genre but then The Electric Underground content completely changed everything. still, I wouldn't find time to watch 3 hour-long videos.

Steven wrote:Surugaya has Tatsujin for 48,000 yen.

That price is not really an improvement, lol, I paid 1/10th of that for the MD version last year.

And while I haven't played the PCE version, I have a feeling I'd prefer the MD for the aspect ratio & chunky FM explosions. I already find the game plenty tuff-e-nuff.

I think the only PC Engine shooters I have are 1941 Counter Attack, Aldynes, Battle Ace, and Dragon Spirit. I've never been able to get super into PC Engine shooters for some reason.

The PCE has a few distinctive traits that make it stand out from its contemporaries.

It handles a lot of sprites moving quickly on screen very well, which meant that it received a huge amount of Japanese arcade developer support. It was the preferred home of Namco, who were in an ongoing blood feud with Nintendo, and in arcades were the Pepsi to Sega's coke.

Its big strength is that it can display 481 colours on screen, vs. the Super Famicom's 256 and the Mega Drive's 64 (Sega, why??). This allows it to punch well above its weight in terms of visual impact. Where it can't display detail the others can, it can make up for it with colour complexity and gradients.

The sound chip is unique, based on wavetable synthesis that uses waveforms with really idiosyncratic harmonics that make it sound quite unlike anything else that's ever existed. It had a knack for making compositions sound better than they were, and someone with talent and sound design vision like Shinji Hosoe (Ordyne, Dragon Spirit), Keita Hoshi (Super Star Soldier, Soldier Blade) or Tomotsune Maeno (Neutopia), the effect can be indescribable at times.

But the big thing in 2022 is that it's still a fun and affordable system to collect for (not the TurboGrafx-16 though, that marketplace is a nightmare). The good stuff in the Mega Drive or Saturn shmup libraries will cost you, outside a few relatively common ones. The SFC has like 4-5 worthwhile affordable shmups.

It sounds like you have a SuperGrafx, but no CD player? These are all top notch HuCard games which can still be had complete for under ¥5000:

Super Star Soldier
Final Soldier
Salamander
Gradius
Galaga '88
Image Fight
Kyūkyoku Tiger
Darius Plus
Side Arms
R-Type I
R-Type II (The HuCard version of R-Type was split across 2 releases due to format limitations back in early 1988)

And if you're willing to stretch a bit, these all sell for ~1万 or below:

Download
Dragon Saber
Aero Blasters
Violent Soldier
Gunhed/Blazing Lazers
PC Denjin/Air Zonk

Of course there are tons more in those brackets, especially if you have access to Super CD. There really isn't any other platform for shmups that's comparable in terms of volume, quality and price.

OmegaFlareX wrote:Couldn't find Final Soldier in your post.

I'd probably put L-Dis a little higher, I really enjoyed that one.

Thanks, I've added it (it's in B+). It and Final Blaster are both in the same rank so my brain skipped one.

Shmup Junkie's endless enthusiasm is infectious and a real boon to our rather niche genre. While his PC Engine video is too long for one sitting, I enjoyed it in several parts and even now will flick back to it to gain a little hype and insight into a title that I am about to try for the first time.

Valtele wrote:just wanted to say that Shmup Junkie's videos introduced me to this genre but then The Electric Underground content completely changed everything. still, I wouldn't find time to watch 3 hour-long videos.

Mercifully this one's got alphabetical chapter breaks, so it doesn't demand you sit through the whole thing in one go. Though I've somehow managed to do so more than once, TBH this is more interesting to me than most stuff on Netflix is anyway. It's a fascinating library because of how super obscure so much of it is in the West, yet how good so much of it appears to be. There are even more titles than he's got here, things like Spiral Wave which could have easily made the cut if the similar Space Harrier did.

That being said, I'm more than inclined to cut him plenty of slack on that sort of thing here. This video is longer than a feature film yet was a one-man show, and anyone who's ever done filming, editing or recording gameplay (for a decent cross-section of stages) knows how much more time consuming it all is than it appears. He must have spent literally 2-3 full-time weeks worth of hours writing, playing, filming & editing this, if not more.

Samildanach wrote:Shmup Junkie's endless enthusiasm is infectious and a real boon to our rather niche genre. While his PC Engine video is too long for one sitting, I enjoyed it in several parts and even now will flick back to it to gain a little hype and insight into a title that I am about to try for the first time.

The best way I can describe this is as a contribution to the genre. The only Western YouTuber I'm aware of who's plumbed the depths of the PC Engine library in detail is the absolutely excellent Dr. Sparkle (seriously, his research and perspective on release contexts completely changed how I look at games from this era and in general), and he didn't even make it all the way to 1990 in the catalogue before life stuff hit him and he burned out on the project. Even among Japanese YouTubers where the PC Engine is much better covered, videos tend to be of the "Introducing 16 Famous Famicom Ports on the PC Engine!" variety.

Junkie's Technosoft and Compile retrospectives were excellent too. I have high hopes for the Toaplan documentary.

what I found interesting is the difference between the tastes of Shmup Junkie and The Electric Underground. for example, I cannot imagine Shmup Junkie making a video about Crimzon Clover. it's clear that he is not into CAVE-style STGs, like The Electric Underground. but I found a lot of amazing titles from his channel nevertheless, such as the Raiden series especially.

similarities with AVGN is another topic and perspective on taste. still, I think that he is doing an amazing job, which is to tell the world how amazing STGs are and bringing new fans to the genre.

Sengoku Strider wrote:

Steven wrote:Surugaya has Tatsujin for 48,000 yen.

That price is not really an improvement, lol, I paid 1/10th of that for the MD version last year.

And while I haven't played the PCE version, I have a feeling I'd prefer the MD for the aspect ratio & chunky FM explosions. I already find the game plenty tuff-e-nuff.

I think the only PC Engine shooters I have are 1941 Counter Attack, Aldynes, Battle Ace, and Dragon Spirit. I've never been able to get super into PC Engine shooters for some reason.

The PCE has a few distinctive traits that make it stand out from its contemporaries.

It handles a lot of sprites moving quickly on screen very well, which meant that it received a huge amount of Japanese arcade developer support. It was the preferred home of Namco, who were in an ongoing blood feud with Nintendo, and in arcades were the Pepsi to Sega's coke.

Its big strength is that it can display 481 colours on screen, vs. the Super Famicom's 256 and the Mega Drive's 64 (Sega, why??). This allows it to punch well above its weight in terms of visual impact. Where it can't display detail the others can, it can make up for it with colour complexity and gradients.

The sound chip is unique, based on wavetable synthesis that uses waveforms with really idiosyncratic harmonics that make it sound quite unlike anything else that's ever existed. It had a knack for making compositions sound better than they were, and someone with talent and sound design vision like Shinji Hosoe (Ordyne, Dragon Spirit), Keita Hoshi (Super Star Soldier, Soldier Blade) or Tomotsune Maeno (Neutopia), the effect can be indescribable at times.

But the big thing in 2022 is that it's still a fun and affordable system to collect for (not the TurboGrafx-16 though, that marketplace is a nightmare). The good stuff in the Mega Drive or Saturn shmup libraries will cost you, outside a few relatively common ones. The SFC has like 4-5 worthwhile affordable shmups.

It sounds like you have a SuperGrafx, but no CD player? These are all top notch HuCard games which can still be had complete for under ¥5000:

Super Star Soldier
Final Soldier
Salamander
Gradius
Galaga '88
Image Fight
Kyūkyoku Tiger
Darius Plus
Side Arms
R-Type I
R-Type II (The HuCard version of R-Type was split across 2 releases due to format limitations back in early 1988)

And if you're willing to stretch a bit, these all sell for ~1万 or below:

Download
Dragon Saber
Aero Blasters
Violent Soldier
Gunhed/Blazing Lazers
PC Denjin/Air Zonk

Of course there are tons more in those brackets, especially if you have access to Super CD. There really isn't any other platform for shmups that's comparable in terms of volume, quality and price.

I have a SuperGrafx, SSDS3, a CoreGrafx, a (dying) CD-ROM², and 2 IFUs. Of the ones that I've tried that I can remember, there are Soldier Blade, Dragon Spirit, R-Type and R-Type II, R-Type Complete CD, Salamander, Image Fight, Super Darius, Darius Plus, Darius Alpha (there are no SuperGrafx enhancements that I can see), Kyuukyoku Tiger, Nexzr, Cotton, Gate of Thunder, Winds of Thunder, Dead Moon, Fantasy Zone, Gunhed, Gradius, Gradius II, Magical Chase, Toilet Kids, Tatsujin, and the 3 shooters on the SuperGrafx. 1941 Counter Attack is easily my favourite one by far. I LOVE that game so much. For a lot of these, I'd rather just play the arcade versions, but I recently learned that PC Engine Salamander is better than the arcade version. I do greatly prefer PC Engine Tatsujin's music over the other versions, though. I want to somehow play the arcade version but with the PC Engine's music. That would be amazing.

I mentioned that I met Toyama Yuuichi recently, right? I asked him a question: out of all of the games you've made, which one would you want me to play the most? He said Spriggan mark2 because he wrote the scenario. I guess most people don't consider it to be all that great, but I'll still try it eventually. The dude basically made most of the game entirely by himself from what I can see, so I imagine it was something of a passion project for him and I'd feel bad if I didn't try it after he specifically asked me to do so.

Since you mentioned the Saturn, I think you'd be surprised at the prices of Saturn games, though; I got Cotton 2 for about 12000 yen not long ago (missing the calendar but otherwise complete), got Soukyuugurentai for like 6000 yen complete in December, got Radiant Silvergun for about 11000 yen or something in June, and Battle Garegga is about the same price if you know where to look, but with the PS4/Xbox version of Garegga, there really isn't much of a reason to buy the Saturn version unless you don't have a PS4 or Xbox, as Saturn console + Saturn Garegga is cheaper than just the PS4 itself.

I wish I could find the charm in Mr. Heli. Irem was my favorite developer for years. But the game never clicked with me - always seemed far too tedious for a shooter. Best I can do is consider it an improved Atomic Robo-Kid, but I absolutely hate ARK so that isn't saying much.

Might have to change my mindset, or go into it when I'm feeling a little more patient. Anyone who loves the game have a few words in its defense?

Oops, I forgot I did try Mr. Heli a little bit, as well. I definitely want to play it some more, as it seems really interesting. That's another Irem game I want to see on Arcade Archives.

jehu wrote:I wish I could find the charm in Mr. Heli. Irem was my favorite developer for years. But the game never clicked with me - always seemed far too tedious for a shooter. Best I can do is consider it an improved Atomic Robo-Kid, but I absolutely hate ARK so that isn't saying much.

Might have to change my mindset, or go into it when I'm feeling a little more patient. Anyone who loves the game have a few words in its defense?

There's an old joined review of the game from me and another forum member where we elaborate, but here's the short version: What we both like about the game is the variety it offers, and also that there's really no other game like it. It's one of a kind. It's certainly an acquired taste and not for everyone, but I urge anyone not to dismiss it too quickly. (See shapermc's remarks at the end of the review.)

Steven wrote:I have a SuperGrafx, SSDS3, a CoreGrafx, a (dying) CD-ROM², and 2 IFUs. Of the ones that I've tried that I can remember, there are Soldier Blade, Dragon Spirit, R-Type and R-Type II, R-Type Complete CD, Salamander, Image Fight, Super Darius, Darius Plus, Darius Alpha (there are no SuperGrafx enhancements that I can see), Kyuukyoku Tiger, Nexzr, Cotton, Gate of Thunder, Winds of Thunder, Dead Moon, Fantasy Zone, Gunhed, Gradius, Gradius II, Magical Chase, Toilet Kids, Tatsujin, and the 3 shooters on the SuperGrafx. 1941 Counter Attack is easily my favourite one by far. I LOVE that game so much. For a lot of these, I'd rather just play the arcade versions, but I recently learned that PC Engine Salamander is better than the arcade version. I do greatly prefer PC Engine Tatsujin's music over the other versions, though. I want to somehow play the arcade version but with the PC Engine's music. That would be amazing.

LOL, alright, it sounds like you've played more of these than I have then. In terms of games that don't have arcade equivalents, what is it about them that doesn't click for you?

Since you mentioned the Saturn, I think you'd be surprised at the prices of Saturn games, though

When I mentioned 'affordable' I was specifically thinking in the ¥5000 and under range. Though just glancing at Suruga-Ya's website, there's way more there ATM than I thought:

Gunbird
Strikers 1945
Gradius Deluxe Pack
Deta na TwinBee Deluxe Pack Yahhō!!
Gokujō Parodius Da! Deluxe Pack
Darius II
Darius Gaiden
Game Tengoku (Base version)
Layer Section
Macross: Do You Remember Love?
Sega Ages Fantasy Zone
Space Invaders

Salamander Deluxe Pack Plus is just a bit higher at ~¥5600

And if your definition of shmup is a little more flexible:

Assault Suit Leynos 2 (How is this game not ultra sought after and worth a billion dollars?)
Sega Ages After Burner II
Sega Ages Galaxy Force II
Sega Ages Space Harrier
Panzer Dragoon
Panzer Dragoon Zwei
Soviet Strike

I'm not sure if that's because the JP Saturn market is cooling a bit, or because the yen has gone in the tank the past month. Either way, this is probably a great time to buy in with the yen so low vs USD & CAD.

Incidentally, does anyone know if there's any point getting the Saturn version of Fantasy Zone if I already have the M2 AGES port on Switch?

I got Cotton 2 for about 12000 yen not long ago (missing the calendar but otherwise complete), got Soukyuugurentai for like 6000 yen complete in December, got Radiant Silvergun for about 11000 yen or something in June, and Battle Garegga is about the same price if you know where to look, but with the PS4/Xbox version of Garegga, there really isn't much of a reason to buy the Saturn version unless you don't have a PS4 or Xbox, as Saturn console + Saturn Garegga is cheaper than just the PS4 itself.

That's an insanely good price on Radiant Silvergun if it's in good shape and complete. I paid twice that and still got a bargain compared to what it's going for on Pricecharting. With Garegga I bought the Korean M2 ShotTriggers release, but if I saw it for Saturn at that price I might bite all the same. While the M2 QoL features are vital, at the end of the day I do prefer playing on Saturn. Also, I don't read Hangul.

Cotton 2 got weirdly cheap when the City Connection Saturn Tribute hit. Which makes no sense because:

A) It's often the case that these re-releases drive the prices of the older versions up higher.
B) The Tribute has like 3 days of input lag.
C) Strictly Limited still has CE stock available on both Switch & PS4 (of a 2500 print run). With teacups even.
D) It seems to have jacked up the price of Guardian Force (See point A).

But anyway. PC Engine. Yeah, the Salamander port is great because it nails the graphics almost perfectly (which is why M2 included the arcade version on the PC Engine mini, just to show how good it is by comparison), the chiptunes rock and the difficulty rebalance feels just right imo. The PCE really has my favourite versions of both Salamander and Gradius for those reasons. I'm looking forward to getting around to Gradius II, hoping it's as good as Junkie says in this video.

Sengoku Strider wrote:LOL, alright, it sounds like you've played more of these than I have then. In terms of games that don't have arcade equivalents, what is it about them that doesn't click for you?

I'm not really sure. A lot of the PC Engine original games just seem kind of... generic/all the same/something like that, I guess, even though I know they aren't. I can't really explain it and I don't really get it, but I do know that every time I play Soldier Blade or something for a few minutes, I always think "This is nice... but I could be playing 1941 Counter Attack instead.". Something about them does not grip me like the arcade games do, but there are very few instances where I prefer the PC Engine version over the arcade version, and since Hamster exists, many of the arcade versions now have perfect home releases on modern hardware, so it's like... yeah.

The arcade -> PC Engine ports themselves are mostly really great with a few exceptions (I tried PC Engine Zero Wing for the first time yesterday and while it's not technically bad, the MD version exists, so...), but with so many of the arcade versions being right there on Arcade Archives, I don't really see much of a reason to play the PC Engine versions at all in most cases. At the times of their releases, those ports must have been incredible, but I wasn't around for that. I do need to seriously try PC Engine Salamander, though, and although I have it on my SSDS3 and MiSTer, I'd like to get a real copy of it. 1941 Counter Attack... not sure if I like the SuperGrafx version more than the arcade version, but I definitely prefer the SuperGrafx music and like it a lot, even though I don't typically care for the PC Engine soundchip.

When I mentioned 'affordable' I was specifically thinking in the ¥5000 and under range. Though just glancing at Suruga-Ya's website, there's way more there ATM than I thought:

Gunbird
Strikers 1945
Gradius Deluxe Pack
Deta na TwinBee Deluxe Pack Yahhō!!
Gokujō Parodius Da! Deluxe Pack
Darius II
Darius Gaiden
Game Tengoku (Base version)
Layer Section
Macross: Do You Remember Love?
Sega Ages Fantasy Zone
Space Invaders

Salamander Deluxe Pack Plus is just a bit higher at ~¥5600

And if your definition of shmup is a little more flexible:

Assault Suit Leynos 2 (How is this game not ultra sought after and worth a billion dollars?)
Sega Ages After Burner II
Sega Ages Galaxy Force II
Sega Ages Space Harrier
Panzer Dragoon
Panzer Dragoon Zwei
Soviet Strike

I'm not sure if that's because the JP Saturn market is cooling a bit, or because the yen has gone in the tank the past month. Either way, this is probably a great time to buy in with the yen so low vs USD & CAD.

Yeah, there are a lot of affordable games on the Saturn, but it does depend on what you consider affordable. I generally use 10000 yen as my affordable range. Anything around the 10000~12000 range and below is something I won't hesitate to insta-buy if I see a decent copy, but Arcade Archives means I don't buy a lot of them.

That's an insanely good price on Radiant Silvergun if it's in good shape and complete.

Yeah, it's incomplete. No hagaki and no obi. Otherwise it's in excellent condition.

But anyway. PC Engine. Yeah, the Salamander port is great because it nails the graphics almost perfectly (which is why M2 included the arcade version on the PC Engine mini, just to show how good it is by comparison), the chiptunes rock and the difficulty rebalance feels just right imo. The PCE really has my favourite versions of both Salamander and Gradius for those reasons. I'm looking forward to getting around to Gradius II, hoping it's as good as Junkie says in this video.

PC Engine Gradius II is really good. From what I have played of it and the arcade version, the PC Engine version seems to be pretty close to the arcade version if not mostly identical, although the port apparently has an extra stage. You won't be disappointed, that much I can promise.

Herr Schatten wrote:

jehu wrote:I wish I could find the charm in Mr. Heli. Irem was my favorite developer for years. But the game never clicked with me - always seemed far too tedious for a shooter. Best I can do is consider it an improved Atomic Robo-Kid, but I absolutely hate ARK so that isn't saying much.

Might have to change my mindset, or go into it when I'm feeling a little more patient. Anyone who loves the game have a few words in its defense?

There's an old joined review of the game from me and another forum member where we elaborate, but here's the short version: What we both like about the game is the variety it offers, and also that there's really no other game like it. It's one of a kind. It's certainly an acquired taste and not for everyone, but I urge anyone not to dismiss it too quickly. (See shapermc's remarks at the end of the review.)

Checked it out - thanks for forwarding me on to the Xenocide Files. I forget they exist sometimes, but the review helped give me a sense for why Mr. Heli has its reputation. I'll have another crack at it on some lazy weekend afternoon. The screenshots made it seem more appetizing again.