shmups.system11.org

I bought this and have been enjoying it mightily. Feels nice and snappy to me. I won't attempt to forecast any input lag, but whatever it's doing is fine enough for my casual play. The arcade mode is indeed super tough, but the 360 mode is far softer. Novice Mode is nice too - it's got more guts than DFK or Mushi novice modes, so it's worth more than a single run, assuming you're not already an ace.

For all the difficulty, the stage design is compelling, and a total 180 from DFK. It feels a little bit like DOJ, and clearly references lots of DOJ patterns, but is denser and faster on the whole. Really cool game

BloodHawk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 6:15 pm
We will see if others with better setups measure similarly, but I am confident the Switch port has an extra frame over the 360.

Which would be completely consistent with what we've seen in 99.9% of switch shmup ports. Something about the architecture of the switch seems to add about a frame of lag from more conventional consoles. I was hopeful Live Wire would work another miracle here, but 5-6 frames is still right on the edge of what I'm not able to personally feel. So it's fine. I still haven't bought this because I'm prioritizing saving money right now, but I am allocating room in my budget to buy it in the next couple of weeks. I should mention I'm not a massive DDP fan like Mark is-really, Mark's video is probably going to be the one to watch. I know some people don't like all his videos and that's fine, but when it comes to DDP he IS a superfan and he will have lag numbers with all the best measuring tools. I believe he's said in the past that SDOJ is one of his favorite DDP games.

My best guess for myself is I probably won't be able to feel any lag when I play because I usually can't feel lag at 6 frames or below. I never notice lag in ACA releases (usually around 5-6 frames) outside of Metal Slug (which is a laggy franchise. )

Can't compare with the Xbox 360 version, but this version looks and sounds much better than Xenia or FbNeo versions I can compare with

jpganisso wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 9:38 pm Can't compare with the Xbox 360 version, but this version looks and sounds much better than Xenia or FbNeo versions I can compare with

If the Switch port of DDP-SDOJ is better than the Xenia and Final Burn Neo emulators running it, Live Wire pulled off "a miracle" with it, indeed (that's quite pretty impressive nevertheless).

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

BloodHawk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 6:15 pm So I recorded a very quick and dirty comparison at 240fps. Since I don't own an indicator light it's a struggle to measure movement delay, so I have to position the camera with the controller in the foreground in a way I can visually confirm full button press and wait for an indication of a shot starting to come out instead. So these numbers should not be considered official measurements for the game's overall lag as I am sure others may have faster setups and can measure movement. The purpose of this is to just measure the difference between the 2 ports in a consistent manner. My TV is an LG C3 OLED, obviously with all of the game mode/lag reduction stuff on. Using Type A ship with the "Shot" type outfit.

X360, using official wired 360 controller across 10 measurements averaged 19 frames at 240fps (so 4.75 average frames of delay at 60Hz).

Switch, using same controller through a Brook Wingman NS converter averaged 24.5 frames at 240fps (6 average frames of delay at 60Hz)

However, since that measurement was going through a converter and the Switch's USB port, I tried the Pro Controller via wireless, and that averaged 23 frames at 240fps (5.75 average frames of delay at 60Hz).

We will see if others with better setups measure similarly, but I am confident the Switch port has an extra frame over the 360.

Cool, good testing. That's about what I expected, but it's disappointing that they didn't manage to improve this.

Has anyone ever tested the Switch's screen for input lag? Bob RetroRGB tested the Sega Nomad a while ago and found that its screen has one frame of lag, so I'd be interested in seeing the same done for the Switch and also the Steam Deck.

Sima Tuna wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 7:48 pm Something about the architecture of the switch seems to add about a frame of lag from more conventional consoles.

Switch controllers seem to be inherently very laggy as well, judging by the MiSTer testing data.



Now this is MiSTer test results, not Switch test results, so this may not accurately reflect the performances of these same controllers on the actual Switch, but it is the data that I was able to find. Maybe there is better data, so if someone has it, I definitely want to see it. Supposedly the Joy-crap (not listed) has the best input lag of all Switch controllers. Most disappointing, as those are horrid for a multitude of reasons which are not limited to stick drift making them actively detrimental to use.

Meanwhile, the PS5 controller is over here at sub-2ms wired and at below 6.4ms wireless, making it one of the fastest wired and wireless controllers on the list.



Again, MiSTer data, but it's what I could find.

beer gas canister wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 7:01 pm It feels a little bit like DOJ, and clearly references lots of DOJ patterns, but is denser and faster on the whole. Really cool game

That is something they did intentionally, as their goal was "make Daioujou 2012 Version™" instead of staying with the more complex Daifukkatsu style. I played this game way before either of those, so going backwards was weird.

To me this plays just as good as my X360 version.

I've had for a long time gripes with the difficulty of SaiDaiOuJou, but that's largely my own doing, because I always insist playing arcade on default difficulty- to be "true".

But really, this game is best played either on novice mode or then arcade with difficulty setting on "easy". This game will brutalize you if you try it any other way, unless you are really good with bullet hell. And I have never really been good on anything else except Gradius, R-type and Raiden DX.

It's probably an option you can purchase in the in-game shop but the hitbox is too large. The giant hitbox adds to the already difficult game and I don't care for it.

Expert mode gives you a smaller hurtbox. It also makes the game extremely difficult.

Steven wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2024 1:27 am Expert mode gives you a smaller hurtbox. It also makes the game extremely difficult.

Turns out there is an option you can buy to make your entire ship smaller and change the size from 1 to 4. I'm going to check it out with this because currently this is my biggest complaint regarding the difficulty.

I'm still having fun with this release though, I mean novice really is nothing like the novice versions I'm used to seeing which is a cool change of pace. There's a lot of content here like the other Livewire ports, and the arrange is very interesting.

That does exist, but I've never used it, so I'm not sure if it actually makes your hurtbox smaller or just the ship sprite. If it does make your hurtbox smaller, it's also definitely not going to be valid for playing for score.

A number of Japanese accounts (including one LED+Brook UFB test) are saying the input lag is 5 frames, the same as the 360 release.

It's a bummer as that means EXA is still the lowest-lag way to play, and that's locked behind $5000 of hardware.

https://x.com/TRSYJ/status/1870100741685407876
https://x.com/charlie0816/status/1869809110528733455

Emerl wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2024 6:05 pm A number of Japanese accounts (including one LED+Brook UFB test) are saying the input lag is 5 frames, the same as the 360 release.

It's a bummer as that means The Original PCB is still the lowest-lag way to play, and that's locked behind $3000 of hardware.

Fixed!

If it's the same as the xbox 360 version then that's a-okay with me.

Jonpachi wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2024 7:41 pm

Emerl wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2024 6:05 pm A number of Japanese accounts (including one LED+Brook UFB test) are saying the input lag is 5 frames, the same as the 360 release.

It's a bummer as that means The Original PCB is still the lowest-lag way to play, and that's locked behind $3000 of hardware.

Fixed!

If low lag is what you want, you’re not going to beat the exA’s one frame, my friend.

One frame AKA zero frames if you want to look at it in that way, assuming that actions occur on the frame after the input. The PCB's audio is also quite bad. There's really no reason to play the PCB if you have the exa version available unless you hate exa like me, and if you don't, it's still sadly cheaper to buy an exa machine and exa Saidaioujou than it is to buy a Saidaioujou PCB.

Anyway, if the lag is truly equal to the 360, it's (probably) good enough, extra lag from Switch controllers and USB ports aside. Nobody can really complain about the lag on 360 anymore because of Sairyou's Inbachi clear. Well, you can complain about it because it is high, but I wouldn't say that it has too much lag given what's been accomplished on the 360 version.

Anyone played this at 480i/480p just to see if this improves slowdown and the feel of more consistent lag like the 360 version?

I never really noticed the lag until I watched a video that pointed it out on the 360. What I did notice but second guess myself on was the hitbox being larger than I'm used to. I had no way to test/compare and I'm a nobody, so I figured I'd just get called a scrub making excuses or something. But recently I've seen people actively calling attention to it. I never really followed much discussion about the game, just played it a lot so the confirmation is news to me.

Neither of these hindered my enjoyment even when I was made aware of them though. And clearly it doesn't make the game unplayable, so I'm fine if the Switch port's all the same. It'd be nice if Switch emulators had a means to fix at least the lag since that'll be the easiest way to play it on PC once it gets dumped.

I'm already used to the larger hitbox, but it definitely threw me off at first. I just have to practice the harder parts. Honestly the arrange mode is a lot of fun.

Edit: Apparently I'm an idiot and just thought the hitbox was larger due to the ship looking so large (watch, that'll end up being smaller than the ship in Daioujou as well probably.)

Saidaioujou's shot and laser hurtboxes are actually smaller than Daioujou's hurtboxes. Daioujou Black Label's are smaller than Saidaioujou shot/laser hurtboxes, though, and Saidaioujou expert is the smallest of all of them.

If you continue to the very end of DDP-SDOJ, you'll get to watch the Staff Credits scrolling on by (which is rather quite long in overall duration) + upon saving the "resulting replay" to view at your leisure, it'll play from beginning to it's eventual conclusion (without pausing whatsoever) giving you an idea of the final boss' danmaku bullet patterns and what to expect the next time you're there (the bullet patterns are truly jaw-dropping without slowing down during certain portions and with a rock-solid & silky-smooth 60fps framerate performance at it's best -- all this on the venerable Switch gaming platform indeed).

Live Wire has done an awesome job in porting the 360 version of DDP-SDOJ to the Switch console bar-none -- color me very impressed with it.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

I just noticed "all regions" in the thread title, is a european release finally confirmed?! Where?

Starfighter wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 8:02 pm I just noticed "all regions" in the thread title, is a european release finally confirmed?! Where?

Your best bet would be to d/l DDP-SDOJ off of either the JPN or USA regional Switch eShop sites for the time being, Starfighter.

By the way, the USA region Switch eShop accepts Paypal as a perferred method of payment, if it needed be, for digital game d/l purchases (as DDP-SDOJ is listed with an MSRP of $34.99 usd on there). It's pricey but well worth it in the end -- just make sure you have at least a minimum of 3.3gb of dedicated memory allocated to properly d/l it (otherwise, it's "no dice" in getting it to boot-up/run properly).

Or consider the alternative of buying an USA monetary eShop card valued at approxiametily $35.00 usd from the Play-Asia site: https://www.play-asia.com/nintendo-esho ... /13/705qmf You'll end up with a single penny as "leftover change" after making the DDP-SDOJ digital purchase off of the USA region eShop (I've seen Switch digital game downloads as cheap as a mere two cents in the past but never for a single penny though -- talk about "mere pennies on the dollar" or mere "chump change").

On the Japanese region Switch eShop, DDP-SDOJ is listed with a MSRP of 4,400 yen to begin with. Some shmuppers have resorted to buying enough Japanese eShop monetary funds off of the Play-Asia.com site and just d/l'ing it off of the JPN region eShop (which is another alternative to take into consideration and very easy to do so). https://www.play-asia.com/nintendo-esho ... /13/705239

Of course, "your mileage may vary" depending on the "international monetary conversion rate" charged to your Paypal account -- it's a given in this day of age indeed.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

I'm getting rather tired of playing this game with a 360 controller. What's the best way to play this game that does not involve the PCB or the exa version? I have a feeling that the answer is "on a real 360" and I hope I am wrong.

Also, a-cho, the arcade where Sairyou got the Inbachi-ALL, is closing.

Steven wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2024 2:25 amAlso, a-cho, the arcade where Sairyou got the Inbachi-ALL, is closing.

Sorry to hear, their fighting game streams were always great BITD.

BIL wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2024 2:28 am

Steven wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2024 2:25 amAlso, a-cho, the arcade where Sairyou got the Inbachi-ALL, is closing.

Sorry to hear, their fighting game streams were always great BITD.

It's really sad to see so many arcades closing. The worst one was the one that got burned down by a fire not too long ago. At least that one's owner is rebuilding thanks to a crowdfunding thingy. I wonder what will happen to a-cho's Saidaioujou PCB. It's a business asset and is likely going to be sold at some point to cover the closing, but damn do I wish they'd just give it away for free to Sairyou, who absolutely deserves it.

Ms. Tea wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2024 7:57 pm It's also worth noting that SDOJ on 360 has notoriously high input lag - given that previous LiveWire ports have been pretty low input lag, it wouldn't surprise me if this port is lower input lag than the 360 version was.

Really glad to see this port; I know SDOJ hasn't been accessible to too many people. It's too bad there's no hope of the exa label mode ever getting a home port, because I think it's great, but the original game and the 360 arrange mode are both a lot of fun.

I think Mark MSX from the electric underground has mentioned that it’s 5 frames of input lag. That’s just 1 frame more than the original Xbox 360 version. Is it from an LCD panel that the extra frame is from? Possibly. But we don’t know if Live Wire will do an update patch later on for this. Mark plays the rom version with Final Burn Neo. Of course you’re only going to get 1-2 frames of input lag with a modern pc. It’s just like ExaArcadia and their system. It’s a windows based pc. And every game they have listed is at 1 frame of input lag. I think we need to have a real discussion on what’s acceptable when it comes to input lag on consoles. The switch is under clocked by default. I’m sure this is for battery life and stability. Because I am sure you could take a modded switch to over clock it and run retro arch with better results.

Hyperspace wrote: ↑Sun Dec 29, 2024 1:46 pm I think Mark MSX from the electric underground has mentioned that it’s 5 frames of input lag. That’s just 1 frame more than the original Xbox 360 version. Is it from an LCD panel that the extra frame is from? Possibly. But we don’t know if Live Wire will do an update patch later on for this. Mark plays the rom version with Final Burn Neo. Of course you’re only going to get 1-2 frames of input lag with a modern pc. It’s just like ExaArcadia and their system. It’s a windows based pc. And every game they have listed is at 1 frame of input lag. I think we need to have a real discussion on what’s acceptable when it comes to input lag on consoles. The switch is under clocked by default. I’m sure this is for battery life and stability. Because I am sure you could take a modded switch to over clock it and run retro arch with better results.

When Mark does his comparisons between systems he uses the same controller and CRT TV so that extra frame going from 4 to 5 isn't from a change in display. I also did my own test earlier in this thread and saw the same 1 frame difference. Although he did note that the standard Switch (non-lite) in handheld mode added yet another frame on top of that (totaling 6 frames).

The Switch adding at least an extra frame when compared to other consoles has unfortunately been the norm its entire life. Based on sales numbers though, I don't think the majority of consumers care. That's been a focus of discussion on a lot of threads here.

I don't know what all it would take to patch out some of that input lag, but based on Live Wire's previous patches for their Cave releases I don't think it's something that they are willing to or have the ability to take on. They are usually always just 1:1 copies of the X360 releases, so I wouldn't hold my breath. I am not trying to completely crap on Live Wire themselves, as I think they are still doing a good service by re-releasing these on Switch. I just wish they would take the opportunity to try to add some additional value to them (especially since SDOJ's price is $35 when their other Cave releases were $20).

This game is a thrill! I have the limited 360 version but couldnt resist to have this on the tiny console.
As for Marks video, besides the input measuring which is always welcomed...I can't agree with the sentiment that is a "wasted port potential"...
There are a lot of different styles of stg players and for many what's present here will be very good enough. For purists sure, you might prefer other routes. But suggesting skipping a release of this calibre to instead resort to emulation, within such a niche genre... feels strange to me. Last few months have been crazy for stg fans, and that should be celebrated.
That being said, online leaderboards are a huge miss... As usual by livewire. Besides that, as far as ports go, it runs fantastically.

Now hope Livewire does 360 Ketsui (+1 frame of input delay) just to piss people off.

Steven wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2024 2:25 am I'm getting rather tired of playing this game with a 360 controller. What's the best way to play this game that does not involve the PCB or the exa version? I have a feeling that the answer is "on a real 360" and I hope I am wrong.

Also, a-cho, the arcade where Sairyou got the Inbachi-ALL, is closing.

SDOJ has been playable on mame for some time now, and feels very responsive.

EmperorIng wrote: ↑Sun Dec 29, 2024 7:34 pm

Steven wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2024 2:25 am I'm getting rather tired of playing this game with a 360 controller. What's the best way to play this game that does not involve the PCB or the exa version? I have a feeling that the answer is "on a real 360" and I hope I am wrong.

Also, a-cho, the arcade where Sairyou got the Inbachi-ALL, is closing.

SDOJ has been playable on mame for some time now, and feels very responsive.

I thought those exa losers put a stop to that. Good that they didn't! I may switch to MAME in that case.

Well, I got it working in MAME and I'm sure I have MAME configured incorrectly, but holy crap this is super nice. It feels so weird and good to finally play this on keyboard. It is unfortunate that the PCB's audio is so fucking bad, and that the stuff that was added to the game on 360 is obviously not there, but I'll tolerate it just so I can use whatever controllers I want instead of being stuck with a 360 controller. It's also possible to get proper scaling on MAME, unlike on 360, where the scaling is incorrect no matter how I configure it. Goodbye, 360. Probably going to be retiring you now.